***  Haus der Kulturen der Welt: Forum1 Archive  ***
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
   [Date]: Mon, 20 Dec 1999 00:33:16 +0800
   [From]: p w toy <toy1234@iinet.net.au>
     [To]: Cultural Exchange via Internet <forum1@herz.kbx.de>
[Subject]: Re: [forum1] Charlie Brown and Mafalda are back

Juan,

I'm not that interested in the squabble between Dianne and You, but what =
emerged from your reply......


   The charisma of the order of the Carmelites (the only order started be=
fore
      Christ) is about the reaching of God through meditation and introsp=
ection.
      Saint John of the Cross evolves that concept with a great handling =
of the
      most erotic poetry ever written.  The handling of the "eros" in the=
 work of
      Saint John as a continuous force, what keeps us from death. The tot=
al
      immersion  into a complete faith of the existence of God, the proje=
ction of
      ecstasy, the climax based on certainty and total freedom. Freedom o=
f
      thought, humor, expression and language:The Sacred Eros of a chast =
man...

I know nothing of the Carmelites or the poetry of Saint John of the Cross=
. It seems that Bill Viola was not equal
to the task of restating
this eroticism. >From what you say and what you seem to know of the carme=
lite order I would be interested to ask
how St.John's
poetry might fit our present global crisis?????
As an Artist I am tempted not to title any future projects..... except to=
 say - "Welcome to the World of the
Cross".
I think we Moderns have a lot to learn from this particular wisdom.

Regards, Peter
http://www.iinet.net.au/~toy1234/


Juan JosŽ D’az Infante wrote:

> Dianne
>
> Your commentary seemed to me more a criticism of how I said something t=
han
> what I said.
>
> >you wrote
> > There seems to be an intellectual's delight in the little itemised se=
ctions
> > of 'conversation' you engage in below and although they are eloquent =
and
> > informative, you are in danger of sounding as though you like to pont=
ificate
> > on these matters.
>
> > We could choose to take up, discuss and refine these ideas further to=
 see
> > how many will dance on the head of a pin. As an anthropologist turned=
 artist
> > I would be happy to take up half a dozen at least. .
> >
>
> If you found a mistake in my posting or think that something is not a v=
alid
> comment or a quote which is inaccurate let me know. I=B4ll be happy to =
take an
> extra dozen.
> If you care to discuss Teilhard, if you wish to discuss from the Theolo=
gy
> point of view, as philosopher, as Jesuit, as a mystic or as writer, any
> time, I always look forward to serious analysis of his thought (the his=
tory
> we all know it).
>
> As Garcia Lorca and Poiesis, " La llegada del duende presupone siempre =
un
> cambio radical en todas las formas sobre planos viejos, da sensaciones =
de
> frescura totalmente in=E9ditas, con una calidad de rosa reci=E9n creada=
, de
> milagro, que llega a producir un entusiasmo casi religioso.
> En toda la m=FAsica arabe, danza, canci=F3n o eleg=EDa, la llegada del =
duende es
> saludada con en=E9rgicos "Ala! Ala!", "Dios, Dios" tan cerca del Ol=E9 =
de los
> toros, que quien sabe si ser=E1 lo mismo..." (I will post the full lect=
ure in
> a couple of days and I will also comment about this Sunday=B4s bullfigh=
t)
>
> > particularly fear the boring hermeneuticians, epistemologists and tho=
se who
> > indulge endlessly in "artspeak", that thick cardboard stuff curators =
and
> > 'art theorists' love to chew.
>
> Boring has never disqualified "valid" and on the other hand I have neve=
r met
> a cardboard curator, most of them are sort of "waxi".
>
> > 'The final product is not art, the action is art'.......
> > Which makes the final product what?  A side-effect of the action? whi=
ch then
> > becomes a sophisticated fetish?.  Subsequently bought and sold and co=
llected
> > by a manipulative mafiosi of gallery owners, curators, museums and a =
few
> > idiosyncratic individuals who can afford to be 30cms off the floor in=
 their
> > own little ecstasies?  They have acquired the symbol of something the=
y
> > vaguely recognize and desire.....so, the baseball is the symbol of Re=
ggie's
> > potency. D'accord.
>
> Let us put it reversed, why would a piece of cloth with color on top of=
 it
> be worth millions of dollars? why would a replica would be less money?
> why is it that a ball signed by Regie is worth more than a ball that is=
 not
> signed by him. It has little to do with being "mafiosi". We have inheri=
ted
> two major structures from the past: The Church and Money. We inherited =
the
> structure of the church that later the modern corporation adopted. Some
> historians refer this insane transition to Amsterdam in the XVI Century
> where the windows of the church were replaced by the images of the impo=
rtant
> bankers.
>
> A piece of paper with ink is called money, the value is not intrinsic t=
o the
> note. First you had your gold in the bank, you sent a messenger with a =
note
> to get the gold. That same  paper replaced your gold. The concept of we=
alth
> today is based on owning paper.
>
> > 'the action is art'....you say and never clarify what you mean.
>
> If action is not art, theater or dance or music would not be art..
>
> To clarify myself on the usage if the form:
>
>  When the symbol becomes more of what it represents, that  is idolatry.
>
> Budha tried to reform Hinduism and got into the same trouble, he became=
 the
> image.
>
> > P.S.: perhaps Bill Viola's interpretation of St John of the Cross com=
es from
> > a different religious and cultural matrix than that of a Spanish
> > Catholic's??
>
> In order to discuss this particular piece both of us would have to have=
 read
> St John of the Cross=B4 poetry (in Spanish is easier the understanding =
of the
> verb to be), we would have to have studied carmelite mysticism, having =
seen
> a couple of videos of Bill other than SJC, and to be familiar with
> installation and video art (since this are the references that Viola gi=
ves
> in his piece).
> As a note,that particular work is redundant, with poor gestalt and
> anecdotic, not to say a lugar comun (common place).
>
> The charisma of the order of the Carmelites (the only order started bef=
ore
> Christ) is about the reaching of God through meditation and introspecti=
on.
> Saint John of the Cross evolves that concept with a great handling of t=
he
> most erotic poetry ever written.  The handling of the "eros" in the wor=
k of
> Saint John as a continuous force, what keeps us from death. The total
> immersion  into a complete faith of the existence of God, the projectio=
n of
> ecstasy, the climax based on certainty and total freedom. Freedom of
> thought, humor, expression and language:The Sacred Eros of a chast man.=
..
>
> Juan